Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

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Re: Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

Postby DarkFairy » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:25 pm

RAP wrote:Ecclesiastes 1: 4 "One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the Earth abideth fo ever. {KJV}


So you're meaning that you disagree Rap?
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

Postby Saved » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:38 pm

Parks wrote:Where did the term backsliding come from anyway? The same place as falling off the wagon? Backsliding and falling of the wagon has never made much sense to me. It sounds more like blaming an act then taking responsibility. People choose to do what they do or not do. Live by it or live without it. That applies to a lot things and makes much more sense to me.

Prov. 14:14, "This term, so often used by the prophets (Is.57:17; Jer. 3:6,8,11,12,14,22; 8:5; 31:22;49:4; Hos. 11:7; 14:4), is here used in such a way as to clarify who is a backslider. He belongs in the catagory of the fool, the wicked, and the disobedient and he is contrasted with the godly wise. It is a word that the prophets used of apostate unbelievers." John MacArthur. This guy prettymuch knows his stuff on most things and if I get stumped on something I like to refer to his teachings. "The just shall live by faith" faith in what? Faith that this Jesus of nazreth was the son of God and died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins and was raised from the dead unto salvation that whomever believes shall be saved. The word "believes" really needs to be understood and or defined to the extreme.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

Postby RAP » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:47 pm

Yes I disagree. Why would Jesus tell us to pray for God's Kingdom {government} to come and his will be done on earth if it was not going to be here? Psalms 37: 9-29 says that the meek will inherit the earth and live in peace because the wicked will have been destroyed. Verse 29 says the righteous will posses the land and dwell therein forever. This is what Jesus was talking about when he said "the meek will inherit the Earth." It would seem strange to me that Jesus would tell us to pray for that Kingdom if the Earth was to be destroyed. Don't get me wrong I have the utmost respect for Campground Man, I like him and feel he is very sincere in his beliefs, he also has a good knowledge of the scripture. I just can't put our two beliefs together and both be in harmony.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

Postby Angry Whiteguy » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:54 pm

RAP wrote:Yes I disagree. Why would Jesus tell us to pray for God's Kingdom {government} to come and his will be done on earth if it was not going to be here? Psalms 37: 9-29 says that the meek will inherit the earth and live in peace because the wicked will have been destroyed. Verse 29 says the righteous will posses the land and dwell therein forever. This is what Jesus was talking about when he said "the meek will inherit the Earth." It would seem strange to me that Jesus would tell us to pray for that Kingdom if the Earth was to be destroyed. Don't get me wrong I have the utmost respect for Campground Man, I like him and feel he is very sincere in his beliefs, he also has a good knowledge of the scripture. I just can't put our two beliefs together and both be in harmony.

I almost agree with you... Shocking!!!
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

Postby RAP » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:31 pm

I love you to JAW............... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

Postby GFunkMoneyDog » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:42 pm

This is a excellent topic, and shows each side of the coin. Without name calling.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

Postby Campground Man » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:05 pm

Saved wrote:
Campground Man wrote:
I don't believe in that theory as well. I'd like to hear from Campgroundman.


The below scripture gives an example of people becoming Christians, then because they fall back into the world they are lost.

II Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

I'll break this down into 3 parts.

"after they have escaped the polutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ"

#1 How does one escape the pollutions of the world through knowing Christ? Pretty simple, this is speaking of becoming a Christian which frees us from the wages of sin - spiritual death, ie hell.

#2 What does being entangled and overcome back in the pollutions of the world mean? In other words you quit, you go back to the sinful ways of before you were a Christian.

#3 What does it mean to say the latter end is worse with them than the beginning? What was your original end or final destination before you became a Christian? Hell.

THIS scripture says the latter end for a Christian who falls back into the world is WORSE than the original end. So what is worse than hell?

Probably the fact that you were free from sin and now would have to spend eternity in hell knowing you had salvation and let it slip away.

This is one scripture, if needs be I can give you several that support and show example of people who were Christians, recognized by Christians by the apostles and then later fell away. Some of these mention them being cut off and thrown into fire, others even say then were given over to Satan.

However, above is one scripture - one scripture of God's word, should we need more than one? Read it over it's not out of context - believe what it simply says.

With all due respect CGM, and I do respect your wisdom and knowledge of The Word, but I need another scripture other than these because you of all people should know to back up to 2 Peter 2:12 and read all the way to 2 Peter 2:22 and see these false teachers was never righteous to begin with, " a dog is still a dog and a hog is still a hog". These false teachers are practicing "apostasy". Luke 11:24-26, 12:47-48; 1 Cor. 10:1-12; Heb.3:12-18; 6:6; 10:26-38; 1John2:19; Jude4-6.


I hate to disagree and yes he was speaking of false teachers from verse 12, but he makes a complete statement. You know as well as I do that there are many false teachers who started out as genuine and was turned either by fame or money away from the truth.

Answer me this, IF they were NEVER righteous to begin with - then

#1 HOW did they escape the pollutions of the world through knowing Christ?

#2 In verse 22 it says they turned from the holy commandments which implies they were following it at first.

More scriptures to consider:

Romans chapter 11:

These set of verses speaks of a tree (being God's kingdom) and how that the Jews (the natural branches) were cut off because of unbelief. He also speaks how that the gentiles were able to be grafted in, but tells them to TAKE heed lest you BE CUT OFF also. He also mentions that those who were cut off could be grafted back in. Jesus gave a similar comparison in which the branches cut off would be burned in fire.

Heb 10:26 states that we can lose our sacrifice for sins if we sin willfully without repentence.

1 Cor 10:12 "wherefore let them that thinketh he standeth take heed, lest he fall."

Pauls warns that those who go back under the law of Moses could "fall from grace" Gal 5:4

Can you have grace if you're not a Christian? If you only have grace as a Christian then does this not show that some who had grace, could fall from it? You can't fall from grace if you're not in grace in the 1st place.

1 Tim 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Some would say "oh they weren't righteous in the first place", but how can one depart from the faith if they weren't part of the faith in the first place? I know one who is giving heed to seducing spirits and the doctrine of the devil isn't living a righteous life is he?

Rev 2:5 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

Rev 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Rev 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Look at the two above scriptures IF your name is in the book - you ARE saved. IT says your name can be taken OUT of the book, which means you will be thrown into the lake of fire.

I'm sure I could dig up some more, if I tried.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

Postby RAP » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:10 pm

Very good Campground, well laid out and very easy for anyone to follow. I wish I had your gift of reason, I am working on it. I agree with the logic you use here and have never felt the belief of "once in grace always in grace was biblical.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

Postby GFunkMoneyDog » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:14 pm

The idea of Once In Grace Always In Grace would breed a lazy christian.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

Postby Angry Whiteguy » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:13 pm

GFunkMoneyDog wrote:The idea of Once In Grace Always In Grace would breed a lazy christian.

Uh, do Christians breed.??
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

Postby Saved » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:35 am

]

The below scripture gives an example of people becoming Christians, then because they fall back into the world they are lost.

II Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

I'll break this down into 3 parts.

"after they have escaped the polutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ"

#1 How does one escape the pollutions of the world through knowing Christ? Pretty simple, this is speaking of becoming a Christian which frees us from the wages of sin - spiritual death, ie hell.

#2 What does being entangled and overcome back in the pollutions of the world mean? In other words you quit, you go back to the sinful ways of before you were a Christian.

#3 What does it mean to say the latter end is worse with them than the beginning? What was your original end or final destination before you became a Christian? Hell.

THIS scripture says the latter end for a Christian who falls back into the world is WORSE than the original end. So what is worse than hell?

Probably the fact that you were free from sin and now would have to spend eternity in hell knowing you had salvation and let it slip away.

This is one scripture, if needs be I can give you several that support and show example of people who were Christians, recognized by Christians by the apostles and then later fell away. Some of these mention them being cut off and thrown into fire, others even say then were given over to Satan.

However, above is one scripture - one scripture of God's word, should we need more than one? Read it over it's not out of context - believe what it simply says.[/quote]
With all due respect CGM, and I do respect your wisdom and knowledge of The Word, but I need another scripture other than these because you of all people should know to back up to 2 Peter 2:12 and read all the way to 2 Peter 2:22 and see these false teachers was never righteous to begin with, " a dog is still a dog and a hog is still a hog". These false teachers are practicing "apostasy". Luke 11:24-26, 12:47-48; 1 Cor. 10:1-12; Heb.3:12-18; 6:6; 10:26-38; 1John2:19; Jude4-6.[/quote]

I hate to disagree and yes he was speaking of false teachers from verse 12, but he makes a complete statement. You know as well as I do that there are many false teachers who started out as genuine and was turned either by fame or money away from the truth.

Answer me this, IF they were NEVER righteous to begin with - then

#1 HOW did they escape the pollutions of the world through knowing Christ?

#2 In verse 22 it says they turned from the holy commandments which implies they were following it at first.

More scriptures to consider:

Romans chapter 11:

These set of verses speaks of a tree (being God's kingdom) and how that the Jews (the natural branches) were cut off because of unbelief. He also speaks how that the gentiles were able to be grafted in, but tells them to TAKE heed lest you BE CUT OFF also. He also mentions that those who were cut off could be grafted back in. Jesus gave a similar comparison in which the branches cut off would be burned in fire.

Heb 10:26 states that we can lose our sacrifice for sins if we sin willfully without repentence.

1 Cor 10:12 "wherefore let them that thinketh he standeth take heed, lest he fall."

Pauls warns that those who go back under the law of Moses could "fall from grace" Gal 5:4

Can you have grace if you're not a Christian? If you only have grace as a Christian then does this not show that some who had grace, could fall from it? You can't fall from grace if you're not in grace in the 1st place.

1 Tim 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Some would say "oh they weren't righteous in the first place", but how can one depart from the faith if they weren't part of the faith in the first place? I know one who is giving heed to seducing spirits and the doctrine of the devil isn't living a righteous life is he?

Rev 2:5 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

Rev 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Rev 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Look at the two above scriptures IF your name is in the book - you ARE saved. IT says your name can be taken OUT of the book, which means you will be thrown into the lake of fire.

I'm sure I could dig up some more, if I tried.[/quote]
There is so much here that I don't even wan't to comment, right from the git-go it was taken out of context compairing false teachers with true christians, there is a difference. (1) You don't escape the pollutions of the world just by knowing Christ, the demons knows who Christ is, they don't escape, judas knew who Christ was, people who are not Christians knows who Christ is.(2) The Lord gave them a way to escape but they rejected it and started teaching a gospel that suited there own standards and that won't work. (3) "To him whom much is given much is required." Does a false teacher have worse punishment than a regular non-christian that wasn't given much? How can you "hate to disagree" and turn around and "agree" that the scripture was talking about "apostasy," I know there are false teachers, but I don't know personally if they were genuine, actually if you think about it they weren't genuine because there fruits proove it.They still had the lust of money and fame in there hearts IMO. "Can you have grace if you're not a Christian? If you only have grace as a Christian then does this not show that some who had grace, could fall from it? You can't fall from grace if you're not in grace in the 1st place." You can't fall from grace if your a true christian in the first place, these people were never true christians to begin with or they would of never departed from the faith.
"Some would say "oh they weren't righteous in the first place", but how can one depart from the faith if they weren't part of the faith in the first place? I know one who is giving heed to seducing spirits and the doctrine of the devil isn't living a righteous life is he?" I'll say that they weren't righteous in the first place, because they weren't. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, these people were drawn from our faith because they were giving heed to suducing spirits and went there own way. Either you was throwing that at me or you seriously contradicted yourself. If it was twords me, I forgive you, if it wasn't, study more. I'm no preacher, I'm not trying to show anybody up, and I know that I'm not right on alot of things thats why I try to find the truth and listen to what people has to say. There are alot of people watching this thread and I pray that I don't discourage anybody of trying to find out the truth instead of believing someones speculation that may have scriptures out of context and be led astray after a false teacher that will lead a person into a ditch. If you are truly saved, you won't ever turn from the faith that you have in Jesus to keep you from hell, no matter how long you live you will always repent no matter how bad you screw up. Repent and be saved. Always remember the tares grow with the wheat, but He will seperate them in the end.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

Postby Campground Man » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:16 pm

Saved wrote:There is so much here that I don't even wan't to comment, right from the git-go it was taken out of context compairing false teachers with true christians, there is a difference.

(1) You don't escape the pollutions of the world just by knowing Christ, the demons knows who Christ is, they don't escape, judas knew who Christ was, people who are not Christians knows who Christ is.

Let's look at the actual scripture again.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world [color=#FF0000]through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ[/color], they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

I want you to notice the bold sections. #1 "For if" - this means it is conditional, upon what you may ask? Upon them having escaped the polutions of the world. Keep in mind not all of these guys had became Christians - he's giving the scenario concerning those who did become Christians through the knowledge of Christ. Now notice it says they escaped the pollutions of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of Jesus Christ. It's not saying they knew there was a man named Jesus, it's saying through the knowledge of Christ some of these guys had escaped the pollutions of the world - ie they obeyed the gospel by becoming Christians. I'm not trying to be mean, but to say this means "know" as yea, I know who that Jesus fellow is, is a pretty bad argument.

I think it'd be rather pointless to even mention the words 'IF' they escaped the polutions of the world, if it were the way you say.[/color][/color]
(2) The Lord gave them a way to escape but they rejected it and started teaching a gospel that suited there own standards and that won't work. (3) "To him whom much is given much is required." Does a false teacher have worse punishment than a regular non-christian that wasn't given much? How can you "hate to disagree" and turn around and "agree" that the scripture was talking about "apostasy," I know there are false teachers, but I don't know personally if they were genuine, actually if you think about it they weren't genuine because there fruits proove it.They still had the lust of money and fame in there hearts IMO.

I agree this section was speaking of Apostasy by false teachers but that still does not change the meaning of what it said in verse 20.


You can't fall from grace if your a true christian in the first place, these people were never true christians to begin with or they would of never departed from the faith.

Yet Galation 5:4 disagrees with your statement. Paul was telling the Galation Christians that if they went back under the law of Moses they would fall from grace.

Gal 5:4 "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."



"Some would say "oh they weren't righteous in the first place", but how can one depart from the faith if they weren't part of the faith in the first place? I know one who is giving heed to seducing spirits and the doctrine of the devil isn't living a righteous life is he?" I'll say that they weren't righteous in the first place, because they weren't. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, these people were drawn from our faith because they were giving heed to suducing spirits and went there own way.

You should realize there is a difference in the terms "the faith" and just "faith". When it says they departed from THE FAITH, it's speaking of Christianity, the church, etc.

If you are truly saved, you won't ever turn from the faith that you have in Jesus to keep you from hell, no matter how long you live you will always repent no matter how bad you screw up. Repent and be saved. Always remember the tares grow with the wheat, but He will seperate them in the end.

Your view sounds as if you forfeit your freewill when you become a Christian, but then again the perservance of the saints doctrine is based out of Calvanism which also teaches predestination which also speculates in no freewill. Though most Baptist's have dropped the predestination aspect of it - it is still all tied together whether some want to admit it or not.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

Postby Campground Man » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:00 pm

Hebrews 3:12-13 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. "
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

Postby clark bailey » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:53 pm

RAP wrote:Yes I disagree. Why would Jesus tell us to pray for God's Kingdom {government} to come and his will be done on earth if it was not going to be here? Psalms 37: 9-29 says that the meek will inherit the earth and live in peace because the wicked will have been destroyed. Verse 29 says the righteous will posses the land and dwell therein forever. This is what Jesus was talking about when he said "the meek will inherit the Earth." It would seem strange to me that Jesus would tell us to pray for that Kingdom if the Earth was to be destroyed. Don't get me wrong I have the utmost respect for Campground Man, I like him and feel he is very sincere in his beliefs, he also has a good knowledge of the scripture. I just can't put our two beliefs together and both be in harmony.



Amazingly we're closer to agreement than one would think in regards to what you wrote....
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved or Once in grace...

Postby clark bailey » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:54 pm

Joe Average Whiteguy wrote:
GFunkMoneyDog wrote:The idea of Once In Grace Always In Grace would breed a lazy christian.

Uh, do Christians breed.??



Yeah, just like pagans and Muslims, and Hindu's lol....
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